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 Post subject: growl with cello and violin?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:47 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2015 6:26 pm
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Hi - I love the sound of the SWAM cellos and violins. However, if I try to get a bit more roughness, in the direction of a growl, I can only get it out of the cello, and only by doing very abrupt attacks (which also result in a rapid crescendo into a very loud sound).

Are there any parameters I can set that would get me (a) a longer growl, and (b) let me do it without blowing so abruptly?

Thanks!
Daniel

(use a Mac w/GB + WX-5 controller)


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 Post subject: Re: growl with cello and violin?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:50 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:01 pm
Posts: 143
Hi Daniel,

are you speaking of long scratchy sound?
As in the real bowed strings, you need to increase the Bow Pressure: try to set it near to the maximum value.

Best,
Emanuele
SWAM - Audio Modeling


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 Post subject: Re: growl with cello and violin?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:27 pm 
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Hi Emanuele,

Thanks, but not quite. I have a sample that has a bit of a growl (attached, amateur cello player recorded with the display's mic). In some places Jacqueline DuPre used it with Brahms or Elgar, or as an extreme, 2 Cello Guys.

The SM "bow pressure" (a) is a constant setting, rather than a CC, so I don't see how to use it to perform live, (b) it has a discontinuous characteristic going >0.8, and (c) seems scratchy and *unstable*, rather than a rich and controlled, growl.

So what I'm after would be controlled with a CC, and allow me to (perhaps) start scratchy for just a few ms, but turn into a growl through the rest of the attack, and then transition (or not, depending on the CC messages) into a "good" string sound for the rest of the note.

Thanks,
Daniel


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 Post subject: Re: growl with cello and violin?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:06 pm
Posts: 434
Location: Krefeld, Germany
dchapiro wrote:
The SM "bow pressure" (a) is a constant setting, rather than a CC, so I don't see how to use it to perform live, (b) it has a discontinuous characteristic going >0.8, and (c) seems scratchy and *unstable*, rather than a rich and controlled, growl.

Bow pressure is as well assignable to a CC (e.g. "Bite" if you want to control it by the WX5, I assigned it to a wheel function as the bite control of my TEC BBC seems not to be easily manageable for this, but maybe I'll recheck some day to come) as it is a VST parameter and hence can be automated in a DAW to "start scratchy for just a few ms, but turn into" something else.

Michael (not owning a wooden Cello and hence still not knowing what "a growling Cello" is supposed to mean.)

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Music examples -> http://www.boa-sorte.de


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 Post subject: Re: growl with cello and violin?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:57 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2015 6:26 pm
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Thanks! Seeing the bow pressure in the main page, I had not checked / noticed that one can change it with Midi CCs too. I just tried it, and I'll have to practice, but I think this may give me the less mellow sound that I wanted. Muito obrigado! --Dan :)

PS: I listened to Boa Sorte, and I liked it a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: growl with cello and violin?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:02 am 
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Location: Krefeld, Germany
dchapiro wrote:
PS: I listened to Boa Sorte, and I liked it a lot.


Thanks for the kind words ! :) :)

The Swam Flute on those live recordings is done with a TEC BBC with the "Bite" controlling the "Stye" which for me is considered a kind of "blowing angle" ("Growl" and "Flutter Tong" is derived from a Wheel up and down). I now use the TEC BBCv2 that gives more control over the sound: Nod -> pitch bend, head tilt sidewards -> vibrato speed. This allows for an even more realistic performance, but needs some more practicing. I'm sill not done with the configuring the Cello for a similar setup and practicing with same. See other threads here for more info.

-Michael

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 Post subject: Re: growl with cello and violin?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:11 pm 
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Thanks again! The TEC2 works very nicely, and if I played keyboards I'd get it right away. But I'll try using the WX controls + maybe a pedal, and see what happens. Best --Dan


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 Post subject: Re: growl with cello and violin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:50 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2015 6:26 pm
Posts: 12
Hi - now I have tried using variable bow pressure (via CC) on both the violin and the cello. Neither low nor high bow pressure seem to come from sampled sound, but from processing the signal.

The resulting timbre changes are realistic when the pressure is lower than the 0.5 default (thinner, papery, hesitant). However, with high bow pressures the result did not have any similarity to applying (reasonably) more pressure with a bow. Instead, the pitch dropped in an exagerated way, or went away altogether, and the timbre was roughly that of a sputtering 50 cc motorcycle.

Has anybody else had a similar experience, or maybe am I doing something wrong? If you can get a "nice" high bow-pressure growl, could you post a recording?

Any advice is welcome!
--Daniel


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 Post subject: Re: growl with cello and violin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:03 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:06 pm
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Location: Krefeld, Germany
AFAIK, the SWAM Strings don't use any samples at all. It's pure physical modeling.

I have no experience with "wooden" string instruments, so I can't comment on the sound of bow pressure differences with those. Hence I don't have an opinion how the modeled instrument should sound like.

-Michael

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Last edited by MSchnell on Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: growl with cello and violin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:45 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2015 6:26 pm
Posts: 12
Hi Emanuele,

I had assumed the cello and violin use samples, if nothing else because they sound *way* better than any physical model of bowed strings that I've ever heard, but then the installed files are so compact that I'm not sure. Could you comment on this?

Could you also comment on my last entry in this thread, about getting a nicer / more realistic high pressure bow sound?

Thanks,
Daniel


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